Title: People who don't run combat CYOAs discuss Combat Author: Anonymous Pastebin link: http://pastebin.com/k49a0S3f First Edit: Saturday 13th of February 2016 04:15:17 AM CDT Last Edit: Saturday 13th of February 2016 04:15:17 AM CDT   TheBirdieBin its not hard though tons of options highly narrative   Pandacraft hiji we fought luna in a dream realm entirely narrative what happened   TheBirdieBin nngh is it just too hard? too uninteresting?   Pandacraft honestly hot opinion incoming   TheBirdieBin pointless ?   Pandacraft i think that the more open something is, the harder it becomes to have a consistent agreed upon goal i think a system needs constraints   TheBirdieBin BUT   Amm Being able to do almost anything is boring.   TheBirdieBin THE GOAL   SpezDispenser I think part of it is unfamiliarity with the character   Pandacraft like, pokemon lets you have 4 moves that behave on a hard rulesystem and you get creativity you get tons of fun this is why i liked the original system i liked 'making moves fit' so to speak   SpezDispenser in the same way that someone playing a fighting game character for the first time isn't going to be perfect with it, so too are we unsure of what this doge is capable of   ExcArc Try the system with Steel   Pandacraft also i think arch has a point there   SpezDispenser so they try anything they can think of until they have some data of what does and doesn't work to work off of in it being a new character, we're less sure of the actual differences that are a result of the system   Pandacraft right spes but i fear we're hitting into the problem that hurt steels fight against butch in that the circumstances of a fight doesnt encourage creativity because of the concerns about not spending our ap on heals/defense   Amm Think about it like when we were asking random 'what ifs' to Nips a while back, trying to feel out his world. If something isn't strictly defined then you have to explore it to find out what the limitations actually are. And how the rules work.   Pandacraft also, inheriant to cyoas is the belief that you have to do everything right and 'win' on the first attempt which limits creativity creativity sorta requires failure without cost [imo] well doesnt require it but is encouraged by it   SpezDispenser except in systems where it's established that experimentation is not super punishing   Pandacraft in a sense i believe that tara got a lot of creativity simply because dodge made us feel safe and let us explore spes i agree but to harken back to your talk about inept   ExcArc Tara also got a lot because by the end of the old system Jacker was just throwing moves at us   Pandacraft remember what you said about players and doors   ExcArc Like willow had three different claw attacks Tara had like six different moves each of which oculd stack on each other   Pandacraft players seem to have a tendancy to go extreme on the defensiveness   ExcArc More legos = more toys   Pandacraft when they're burned [or afraid of being burned] anyway thats my lukewarm opinion on players and combat   SpezDispenser well another problem is players don't yet know what failure state is employed for losing a battle since they haven't lost yet   Pandacraft yeah   ExcArc Make it >rape   Pandacraft but we've had implied really bad failure states like steel vs es and taras lichs bookmark breaking   SpezDispenser and they naturally expect the worst, being death (or worse)   Pandacraft and presumably willow vs anything demonic that thing wanted to possess her iirc   ExcArc Maybe CYOAs in general need to work on communication better.   SpezDispenser people have the same fears in SS, where it may be more likely that dying in battle is permanent   Pandacraft theres reason to fear a failure state in hijack imo maybe arch   SpezDispenser but in hijack I never felt like a loss would lead to a death as a failure state, because it's a seriously lighter tone than the grand majority of quests   Pandacraft tbh i have no idea how to make combat work to overcome my concerns   ExcArc QMs get pissy and defensive too easily. Players get obnoxious at the first sign of a mistake   SpezDispenser players are allowed to goof around without any lasting consequences all the time   ExcArc Its like atumblr askblog   Pandacraft i mean liches bookmark was basically implied death dandy almost died from baths monster   SpezDispenser but it was still something that character could come back from   Pandacraft Lexi outright was going to kill everyone she said as much   SpezDispenser characters can get REALLY fucked up as long as they're technically able to come back from it   Pandacraft sure but its not so much what would actually happen   SpezDispenser it's a counterpart to the disney death, the "family friendly fate worse than death"   Pandacraft but what people fear might happen   Amm Players are going to be pissy if they lose no matter what.   Pandacraft even a niggling fear will change how people behave   Amm Depending on how it happens is who they get pissy at.   Pandacraft also its a matter of perception how much has knowing hijacker changed what we think of how hijack would be run do players have the same risk assesment as we do, having heard hiji reassure us about stuff   SpezDispenser it depends on the player   Pandacraft i dont think any of us believe hiji would permamently cripple a character for a failure   SpezDispenser I reached my assumption that nothing permanently bad would happen to anyone before we started the club   Amm There's a problem in there.   SpezDispenser in hijack   Amm Does it matter what Hijacker would do?   Pandacraft it matters what players think he'll do not so much what he'd actually do   Amm It'd make sense for our dog here die or get crippled in the world he's in if he loses here.   SpezDispenser having information on what he's done in the past has the most impact on what people think he might do   Amm That's what they're going to operate, not on what Hijacker might or might not theoretically do.   ExcArc And I think in general Hijacker is a bit too fond of giving the playrs what they want. I can't see him permanently fucking us over because of our mistake.   SpezDispenser and so far in any content he's never taken a life for an inverse reason, people always assume literally anything is death in inept quests, because it has been on numerous occasions   Pandacraft thats sort of another thing   Amm Generally speaking, when I play a CYOA I play the game on the world's terms, not the QM's.   Pandacraft some players will carry preconceptions across quests   SpezDispenser you can say it doesn't matter what he does and that it's what they think he might do, but what they think he might do is based on what he's done in the past more than anything   Pandacraft and have a general attitude towards safety without actually thinking about how qms behave   SpezDispenser for people that follow a reasonable logic, anyway   Pandacraft how would you weight that group in cyoag's playerbasE? we agree with you spes, i think.   SpezDispenser weigh what group   Pandacraft we just disagree on how prevalent that line of thought is   ExcArc Amm that's a good philosophy except that we're expected to display extreme skill to earn the best end And its not like we can fuck up and do it again   SpezDispenser he's got it on in the background ston, for between UPDAT   Pandacraft what percentage of players are "people that follow a reasonable logic"?   ExcArc How can we expect not to metagame if we're only getting one shot to do the best possible job?   Pandacraft do you think they're a majourity?   SpezDispenser christ no well, no   Pandacraft well then there we go   SpezDispenser logic is a finnicky thing   Pandacraft because majorities are going to influence trends in player behaviour   SpezDispenser in that it's wildly different for every single person, just about everyone has their own logical progressions   Pandacraft im not saying you're wrong, i agree with you. I'm saying the game is rigged against you.   StonfersHD I thought logic was a set in stone thing and reasoning was the individual person thing   ExcArc Regardless, the point being that its not about being logical. Its about using logic.   StonfersHD Well I mean, I could be wrong   ExcArc You don't get to the point where you're logical and bam you're always there   SpezDispenser I will not profess to be an expert on things, but as far as I know logic is using knowledge and information to reach a conclusion about something but everyone's knowledge is different, so their logic follows different rules   AmmAmm03:04 Stonfer, you're right in one sense of the world. But that's like saying theory. It means different things in different contexts.   SpezDispenser people do things for REASONS, but those REASONS are different based on what their knowledge base is   Amm In casual conversion logic and reasoning are mixed and it's not incorrect to use one.   Pandacraft also, to pull from rgs, unless blatantly railroaded people blamed the person who made a bad roll nobody wants to be that guy   SpezDispenser anyway panda, it's entirely possible for the majority of a playerbase to be a set that follows an irrational reasoning that leads them to think hijumbojet will randomly murk his characters like inept might, but we have no way of knowing that's the case unless it's been a trend in the past   Pandacraft i would say that its probably a general trend across all cyoas influenced from all cyoas and that the average player isnt thinking 'is this qm different and how' but rather 'this typicall works'   Amm I think it's a bit deeper than that Craft. 'This world is similar to that world in this way and this worked then'   Pandacraft yeah im massively simplifying   Amm Most people wouldn't apply Inept logic to a Nips quest.   TheBirdieBin at the end of the day does this mean the test has faileD?   ExcArc No.   SpezDispenser unless their knowledge of questing was primarily pulled from inept, amm   Amm It depends on what you wanted to get out of it.   ExcArc A test has only failed if you didn't get any useful info out of it.   SpezDispenser because that's all they're famillar with   TheBirdieBin exactly   Pandacraft if you wanted more players to play the combat, then maybe yeah   TheBirdieBin the test so far is teaching me that the 'complexity' isnt the issue here   Pandacraft if you just wanted to see how functional and appealing it would be   ExcArc Hey man only Panda was arguing for that one.   Pandacraft ie: how much people enjoy it   SpezDispenser I think the problem was trying to test both a new character and a new system at the same time   Pandacraft then we're not really talking about that   SpezDispenser it should have been one or the other, so they'd have some previous knowledge to compare to   SeaSwell If you wanted more of a testbed, I would've chosen one a testing environment in universe   SpezDispenser experiments need controls   SeaSwell sparring match or something   Amm A new character with a pretty open ability with a new system with an unknown enemy.   SeaSwell between bros what arch? that complexity isnt the issue? yeah kinda id say that complexity wasnt the issue with the first system   ExcArc IIRC you said complexity was making it unapproachable If it wasn't you I don't remember who ti was   Pandacraft i dont think i said that but if i did i didnt mean that i think player behaviour trends away from experimentation if there is a fear of consequence i dont think people are concerned about how complex the system is, everyone loves having different types of legos or rather, the first system wasnt too complex so that that was the issue, in my opinion   ExcArc I agree with all of that.   Amm I think the first system had more of a problem where it had an easy answer.   StonfersHD So what is the underlying issue here?   ExcArc Its just a bit of a change of tune from what you said. Or maybe i was misinterpreting what you said. too many unknowns and the situation we're in doesn't look like we'll get a chance to test stuff