Title: #esoteric log 2 Author: Anonymous Pastebin link: http://pastebin.com/wwDSPZkn First Edit: Tuesday 26th of March 2013 09:11:05 PM CDT Last Edit: Tuesday 26th of March 2013 09:11:05 PM CDT Goldsmith: I pulled myself out of the falling Goldsmith: and I wasnt falling anymore Goldsmith: I was Goldsmith: in my body Goldsmith: in my bed again Goldsmith: but Goldsmith: I could fucking move Goldsmith: and even worse Goldsmith: I couldnt fucking breath Goldsmith: I had to will myself with all my energy to fucking breath Goldsmith: and I Purlox: Like you physically couldn't or that something was blocking it? Goldsmith: almost fell into the bed and myself again Goldsmith: Like I physically couldnt breath Goldsmith: it was as if Goldsmith: I didnt know how to breath Goldsmith: and had to relearn it Goldsmith: as I was trying to breath Goldsmith: I almost fell into it again Goldsmith: and like Purlox: Couldn't that be sleep paralysis? Goldsmith: I pulled myself up again Goldsmith: I could breath now Goldsmith: but I couldnt move my arms or legs Asgardian: Purlox: At least not a normal one, as breathing keeps going in spite of sleep paralysis. Goldsmith: I forced myself with all my effort to do so Goldsmith: and I started like convulsing Goldsmith: like Goldsmith: I was moving my arms with all of my might Goldsmith: but Purlox: Asgardian, automatic or conscious? Goldsmith: they would only like twitch and shit Goldsmith: and my throat had Goldsmith: intense pain Goldsmith: as if Goldsmith: it was imploding or folding into itself Asgardian: Purlox: Both possible without breaking the paralysis, just like you can keep moving your eyeballs. Goldsmith: I kept willing and fighting Goldsmith: and I broke out of it Goldsmith: and the intense throat pain dissipated Goldsmith: and then I got out of bed Goldsmith: got in here Goldsmith: and started typing Asgardian: ...Wow Pleeb: Interesting. Purlox: That is very interesting Goldsmith: and around half way through typing all of this, Lia woke up, saw what I was typing, looked through my memories, and was all "jesus christ that is horrifying" Goldsmith: I dont think it was sleep paralysis Goldsmith: because Goldsmith: like Goldsmith: I got up Goldsmith: went to the bathroom Goldsmith: took a dump Goldsmith: crawled back into bed Goldsmith: looked at the clock Goldsmith: and it was Goldsmith: 9:10 Goldsmith: and then all of this started almost immediately after that Pleeb: It reminds me a lot of what happens when someone falls asleep as a body, while their mind still remains awake, but there's a few things in there that doesn't add up to that, but it's very similar. Goldsmith: if this was sleeping paralysis, it was the fastest case of it I have ever heard of, and I wasn't staying still anywhere near long enough to fall into it. Asgardian: It sounds as if you temporarily lost access to a load of motor neurons Goldsmith: I dont get it though Goldsmith: like Goldsmith: thinking too deeply and seriously about the world and myself (mainly myself) being an illsuion = this crazy shit. Goldsmith: I would want to test this out out more Goldsmith: but Goldsmith: I am too fucking scared Goldsmith: what happens if I didnt pull out? Goldsmith: I mean, apparently I had already stopped breathing Goldsmith: Would I have died? Asgardian: I think your thoughts in relation to this make some sense, as if you dissociated from reality by discrediting it. Goldsmith: I think its possible if I didnt struggle with all of my might to breath Pleeb: Goldsmith, check your PMs. Flandere: Reminds me of the time I somehow thought or came to the conclusion that reality is fake or worthless or something. Everything seems like you're watching a video, the signals for the muscles don't get send, but the subconscious kept functioning(e.g. breathing was working because I wasn't trying to do it consciously). As depressed as I then was, I didn't freak out and it passed with time. Every time my muscles "refused" to work, it passed with time for me :S Pleeb: Or status window, one of them. Goldsmith: I need to go to the bathroom real quick Goldsmith: and get a drink Pleeb: Flandere: It cut off at "it passed with tim" Flandere: Which one? The first? Flandere: Regardless: "As depressed as I then was, I didn't freak out and it passed with time. Every time my muscles "refused" to work, it passed with time for me :S" Asgardian: Normally breathing is semi-consciousness and should either keep working or resume working after some time, so I doubt but cannot say you would not have died. roflmao: I'm not sure how you could try to deny your own consciousness though, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me... roflmao: (since it's the starting point before any reasoning can begin...) Asgardian: Well, it is the last bastion of what philosophy claims to be indubitably existant. Asgardian: Cogito ergo sum comes to mind. roflmao: you could deny consciousness from the perspective of a different system, but never from your own perspective Asgardian: You very much can, even determinism depending on its kind denies it by seeing everything predestined the way it happens. Asgardian: There are some moderate kinds with whom it is not mutually exclusive, though. Purlox: If you think about it, then consciousness could be an illusion created by the brain roflmao: well, if you only examine outputs, you will just see a system that claims this consciousness thing exists, but since you're such a system yourself, you do *know* what it is, despite being unable to describe it roflmao: it could even be considered a delusion from the perspective of such an outside system, but not internally roflmao: which makes me wonder about roflmao: pseudo-tulpas who deny their own consciousness, or various other subconscious artifacts some people have encountered which seem partially sentient, yet refuse to claim any experience Asgardian: That is what Descartes already said with "Cogito ergo sum", the only thing we can know going with him is that we ourselves exist. Pleeb: I was actuallyh aving this conversation two days ago with a friend. Pleeb: Someone wants to come in and say "Prove that I exist" I'll tell them that I can't.  I said I could prove to them that they have a conscious experince, but not that said conscious experince actually exists. Goldsmith: lets say this Pleeb: Cogito ergo sum is proof of a conscious experince, not a proof of existance. Goldsmith: say you have a computer program Goldsmith: with good enough programming Goldsmith: to trick the program into thinking its alive Goldsmith: or thinking it can think Goldsmith: rather Goldsmith: but really Goldsmith: the previous thinking is just an illusion, greated by its predetermined variables Pleeb: I'll just drop out, because goldsmith is preaching to the choir for me. Flandere: Tempted to program such a program now... Goldsmith: well, I am just stating an idea on how it might be possible Flandere: Then the morality of it all hits me. Asgardian: Vice versa pleeb, it is proof of existance but does not prove you are really free-willed and conscious. roflmao: Goldsmith, only that particular ghost in the machine will know of its consciousness roflmao: you are not required to believe in it roflmao: nor can you even know of it roflmao: you can only know of your own Goldsmith: but we know machines dont even have ghosts Goldsmith: its just doing what its programmed Flandere: ... Goldsmith: Their is a paradox in reality and awareness Flandere: Pleeb: That reminds me of that anime :/ Goldsmith: a glitch of some sort roflmao: that said... there's a wonderful argument someone called "the movie graph argument" which shows the conflict between various such philosophies roflmao: Goldsmith, you don't know that Goldsmith: I think that might explain all of it Goldsmith: yeah Goldsmith: look Asgardian: Flandere:  Ghost in the Shell? Goldsmith: we keep looking at reality as if it is perfect, or as if it has to make sense. Flandere: No, Serial Experiments Lain Goldsmith: as if it has to be logically sound Goldsmith: and fit together Goldsmith: like puzzle pieces Goldsmith: but Goldsmith: what if it isnt? Flandere: Stop shattering my sense of reality. Goldsmith: what if it contradicts itself, contains glitches? Paradoxes? roflmao: you'll probably find a consistent model to fit such subjective reality in anyhow roflmao: just you won't know which it really is Asgardian: Our brain will keep to desperately try to make sense, it always does. Goldsmith: what if that is just a programmed process to hide us from discovering some inconvenient truth, Asgardian? roflmao: then it's not entirely sane ... (hah) roflmao: (not that anything is) Goldsmith: Like how a program has a logic check or an error check to keep a program from crashing, we too might have such programmed checks to keep reality from crashing. Asgardian: Possible, as our brain will make sense of it no matter what it is, even if it is far from the 'truth'. roflmao: there's some truths you can't know though, for example, you can't know if arithmetic is consistent roflmao: but you can *bet* on its consistency Asgardian: That analogy is not bad in that regard, gold. Goldsmith: who is going to be the brave motherfucker to test this shit I ended up falling into? Goldsmith: I am too fucking scared to go back there roflmao: you're the only one who can answer that question, it's only 1p-knowable Flandere: Not for the world. Goldsmith: but I feel like something important is there if you fall all the way. If it doesnt kill you. Asgardian: If it does not kill you. Consider getting somebody observing the experiment to act if you really are about to die. roflmao: (I probably wasted too many months thinking about some similar ideas. Eventually I came to terms with a few possible answers and decided to just settle on some particular (stable?) set of heuristics for my own decision making ... but in the end, you have to do the thinking yourself and decide what internal beliefs you want to hold) roflmao: (it's only "stable" because I take on faith that some particular TM never halts based on some meta-arguments about the nature of computation itself) Asgardian: Reality is a constructed and interpreted illusion of partially very very weird quantum effects, created by possibly the most complicated thing the universe ever spat out. Asgardian: My take on it. Goldsmith: I am starting to think Goldsmith: maybe we define ourselves? Goldsmith: Think about it Goldsmith: I am real and exist and am myself Goldsmith: until I seriously started thinking Goldsmith: otherwise Goldsmith: then all of a sudden Goldsmith: That shit Goldsmith: so maybe our own will defines who and what we are? Purlox: It's possible roflmao: oh... and don't get me started on the notion of identity and continuity, I still don't have a fully satifactory answer to that (but I do have some ~100KB worth of text I wrote trying to figure it out)) roflmao: and I guess that part is the most subjective/unanswerable one so far roflmao: (it's provably unanswerable) roflmao: Goldsmith, but what exactly is our will? Asgardian: That is the question. Goldsmith: I guess I would define it as....hmm, that central intent. Desire. Internal strength. That innate 'us'-ness. Flandere: To be or not to be. Asgardian: Some essence that happens to be the incarnation of what exists. Goldsmith: perhaps things do not simply exist or not exist, but choose to do so or not. Maybe its a sliding scale. Goldsmith: instead of simply being binary roflmao: perhaps everything 'consistent' just exists and we're just one particular instance roflmao: but the definition of consistency is tricky Goldsmith: perhaps we should focus on variety as opposed to consistency roflmao: (obviously this also runs into measure problems, even in very limited versions) Asgardian: Well, the fact that the universe is summa summarum zero should tell us at least something. Asgardian: So we have a sliding scale of existing energy already, and it depends on how far you zoom in/out. Goldsmith: summa summarum zero? Never heard that before. What does it mean? Asgardian: The energy of the universe is overall zero (to remove the latin phrase). Goldsmith: There is no energy in the universe? Goldsmith: wait Goldsmith: that contradicts everything right? Asgardian: There is positive and negative energy, somewhere more of the one than the other, but adding it all up equates to zero. Goldsmith: Negative energy? speaking of the physics term of energy, shouldnt that be.....an oxymoron Asgardian: Negative energy density is the correct term if I recall correctly, and it surprisingly is not an oxymoron. roflmao: there are some apparent interesting symmetries in our physics Goldsmith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeFuc-qFKoA Asgardian: Well, funnily enough does entropy create disorder, thus mixes the overall energy of the universe again. If you ask me could the end result be not a big chill or bang again, but just the universe fading out by being mixed so much the energies become zero again. Asgardian: Mostly the established quantum mechanics in the video till now. Asgardian: Does not change the amount of crazy shit it really is Asgardian: Good video, summing up the more than baffling stuff quantum science spit out nicely. Purlox: This vid is also good www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmN2RL4VJsE Asgardian: Ok-ish I would say Purlox: Certainly better than most spiritual vids Asgardian: True, but has a severe evidence problem Purlox: What do you mean? Asgardian: Well, it claims a lot of stuff that is even scientifically proven otherwise Flandere: I claim to be god. Flandere: Now I have the same credibility as that video. Purlox: Don't be god, be a cookie roflmao: Flandere, I believe you for certain definitions of god. Flandere: XD Goldsmith: Pleeb, Purlox, others....I have decided Goldsmith: tonight I am going to attempt to recreate Goldsmith: whatever happened this morning Goldsmith: and dive deep Goldsmith: and not pull out Goldsmith: and see what happens Goldsmith: so if you guys never hear from me again....... Goldsmith: it probably means it killed me somehow Pleeb: Godspeed, goldsmith. Tesseract: ..."whatever happened this morning"? Tesseract: Ah, wow. I hope he'll be okay... Purlox: So Scraps said PD has plans to "take over the world" or something similar ... I wonder if he could help us Purlox: So assuming PD and Scraps are saying the truth, it's possible to make a "backup" of a consciousness with all it's current memories and such and later restore it. We tested it like 6 times in the chat and it seems true assuming he isn't RPing Purlox: And now he is pretty much trolling himself with this ... Flandere: It's that just forcibly rejecting/ignoring memories? Purlox: Maybe, but he seems to be in similar mindset like he was before the back up after he restores it Flandere: Eh, that'd be the case with it if you rejected memories as well. Purlox: E.g. in the first back up he wanted to say "Back up restored" and he does so every time that back up is restored Flandere: Unless you're rejecting emotional trauma, then it hurts even though you forgot. Purlox: It could be, but he supposedly also killed himself once and then restored his back up Flandere: Okay that is different from just rejecting. Flandere: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1826 Flandere: This happens whenever I try to remove something I just imagined. Purlox: yeah, intrusive thoughts are like that Flandere: I would be fine with it if every intrusive thought didn't end with a spider in my face Flandere: (fyi: I am terrified of spiders but it's not a phobia, luckily) Purlox: Hello Asgardian Asgardian: Afternoon Purlox Purlox: Read this http://pastebin.com/1Dtu3Awp Purlox: I want your thoughts Asgardian: So, what did he do exactly, it does not become as clear from the paste as I'd wish? Purlox: He creates a back up of his mind with his personal memories and the state of mind he is currently in and later he restores it Flandere: (or so he says) Asgardian: Sounds like temporarily walling off some memories Flandere: That's what I thought Purlox: Once he sort of "killed" himself to get restored 30 mins later and during that time Scraps was the one in the main control of the body Flandere: (1:35:30 PM) Purlox: E.g. in the first back up he wanted to say "Back up restored" and he does so every time that back up is restored Purlox: Yeah, that's possible Flandere: That made me think otherwise. Flandere: Assuming it's not a RP. Purlox: yeah, but you have to assume that when we go by such "proof" Flandere: at least until others can (dis)prove it Flandere: or even better, you yourself xD Asgardian: Stirberdestirb wants to try something similar for quite some time already Purlox: yeah Purlox: He could try it then Flandere: I know I've done the whole block-off-whole-memories. It's weird slowly forcing it back though. Flandere: Makes it feel like the whole blocking off was a dream. Asgardian: Technically speaking does the mechanism sound similar to the way people suppress memories, and he just can recover them more easily as they are not traumatic. Purlox: Well, he tried to recover some of the lost ones (when he didn't make a back up) and he supposedly failed Asgardian: Sounds admittedly placeboriffic Flandere: Yeah Purlox: yeah, it could easily be that Flandere: How well did he tell it anyway? Flandere: Like, how detailed? Purlox: What do you mean? Flandere: Of the entire process. Flandere: I'm curious as to how he can remember that he lost memories. Purlox: he doesn't Flandere: I know that I'm enough of a paranoid fuck to place safeguards throughout my entire life. Purlox: we knew he forgot them by the way he talked and answered questions Flandere: I even counted in the possibility of time travel and alter selfs. Flandere: I see. Flandere: That makes it more legitimate, I suppose. Purlox: Once we made him think it was few months later even Flandere: Don't ever let me talk to him. Flandere: I'd be too tempted to permanently damage his memories xD Asgardian: Corrupt his harddrive :3 Flandere: He provides me with root access by rejecting memories. Flandere: That or actually removing them. Purlox: and his back up slipped up and said few things Flandere: How does he go back to a back up if he doesn't remember? Purlox: if he doesn't remember it's there? Flandere: Yeah. Asgardian: Anyways, it sounds possible, but I am rather skeptic about the whole process, especially since it sounds like an awful amount of work. Flandere: I am skeptic as well, but I like fantasizing about the possibilities. Purlox: I think he just restores the latest one, which could be any with or without knowing it Purlox: Yeah, skeptic here, but I would like to know if it's possible Flandere: Should convince that with his first back up he slipped in an automated backup sequence that would add all later backups to the first one. Flandere: And that he forgot about that and forgot some other things as well that we weren't allowed to know. Flandere: And then bluff about some other things. Flandere: This is why I should never study psychology. Flandere: I'd be too busy trying to mindfuck everyone. Asgardian: He basically creates a partition without consciousness and either merges with it or "becomes" it. Flandere: And with my new found knowledge, I'd succeed. Flandere: Hmm. Flandere: In that sense, the old ones would be lost. Flandere: Shame. Flandere: I wonder if I could convince him to run a dd if=/dev/null of=/ Purlox: Well, he becomes the old one, but it still exists there afaik Purlox: unless he willingly gets rid of it Flandere: Hmm. Flandere: I should go make lunch Flandere: brb Purlox: ok Purlox: and now his oldest copy is slipping again Asgardian: Overall it certainly should be possible with an unconvenient amount of effort. Furthermore does it sound dangerous and I am not so sure about the benefits. Purlox: I wouldn't do it for the heck of it, but it can certainly save you Purlox: Think about Tess's history Purlox: how many of them could be saved if they created backups Asgardian: True... Asgardian: I think it is a bit like RAID 1, mirroring data into a second partition Purlox: yeah, that's what I think it could be Flandere: Makes you wonder. Flandere: How many backups could you save? Purlox: same with mindfolk Purlox: You have to wonder how many of them you can have Asgardian: Technically more, as they are not momentarily active. Flandere: Yeah Purlox: Yeah Purlox: But you can put mindfolk into innactive state if you want to Flandere: I wouldn't ever do so, personally. Asgardian: Yep, and I think from a certain number on mindfolk is limited in its momentarily ressources if many are active at the same time. Purlox: yeah, or they get incomplete information or the same one Purlox: *same one as some other mindfolk Asgardian: As I wrote in that Einstein vs JDBar thread, yeah Asgardian: Also, two again rather silly updates on bluesleeve's blog Purlox: I'll read them later Purlox: Do you mean his answers to questions? Asgardian: The two most recent one's ,yup Purlox: ok Purlox: I feel like we shoul help Scraps and PD, because the way he is going now could mean he will never help us Asgardian: What do you mean exactly? Purlox: You know his plans right? Asgardian: The tulpa body thing? Purlox: that is only part of it Asgardian: Then I obviously do not know all of it. Purlox: 0. he wants to prove tulpae exist using MRI scans   1. he wants to make a body for his tulpa to control from his brain   2. he wants to send impulses from the body to his brain   3. he wants to make a brain for the body, so scraps can live independantly from him   4. he wants to make such body for himself, because his brain is going to stop working well some time in the future, because he has some brain desease in his family Asgardian: That is a lot future neuroscience, and it all falls into what I'll study and do for a living. Asgardian: Neuroscience + cybernetics pretty much Asgardian: Now, you think we should actively contact him to bring our goals in concurrecy because the way he goes at the moment does not fit into our plans? Purlox: that for one, but also because he is pretty dangerously playing with his brain atm Purlox: and he could certainly break our whole plan, make it harder or if he is lucky enough, do it for us Asgardian: Yeah, that might be more than reason enough... Asgardian: He does seem pretty determined, so in cooperation the two might be really good allies. Purlox: yeah Flandere: What's in it for him though? Flandere: Rather, why wouldn't he just reject cooperation? Flandere: Or they. Purlox: for what he does: rurvival    for what we do: not complately sure Purlox: *survival Flandere: Good enough. Asgardian: A major complaint I could see him bringing up is, that our plan will take about a decade to even start the process. Asgardian: It is not like his plans would not be more than cutting edge neurotech anyways, though. Purlox: that is possible, but Scraps said he has some long term plan for "world domination" (or something similar) Purlox: *bleeding edge Flandere: Don't we all? Asgardian: Hmm, world domination. Flandere: Is this your first introduction to the idea? Asgardian: If anything, then with my own biotech corporation. Asgardian: Nope, but I mostly retired that plan. Purlox: no world domination? :< Flandere: It's a trick. Flandere: He wants you to think that so he can backstab you later. Asgardian: ::3 Flandere: Psychological warfare is the scariest kind of warfare. Purlox: indeed Flandere: Also the most effective. Flandere: And affective. Purlox: also information warfare Flandere: information warfare is the silence before the storm :P Flandere: every other kind of warfare depends on it Pleeb: Are we talking about scraps and his tulpa?  (sorry, no scroll support atm, and not on very accessable system) Asgardian: Corporal warfare is a rather lame and neverending war, though. Purlox: *PD and Scraps Flandere: no, world domination Pleeb: I saw we were briefly mentioning him yesterday. Purlox: Pleeb, yes we are Flandere: though pre-world domination it was about that, yes Purlox: we really should think about him Pleeb: Yeah, I'm going to be honest, there's just something about that guy though that I don't like, just a feel about him, idk. Pleeb: But I've not talked to him enough, though, so idk. Purlox: Pleeb, can Chess pinpoint why your intuition says that? Asgardian: Well, he seems both determined yet due to his many mental ailments not very credible, at least not in the eyes of people other than us. Flandere: Something about him being as serious as a teenager with a new hobby. Flandere: "Oh this is great to do!" Flandere: half a year later, "meeeeeh" Flandere: Pleeb: Do you get notices correctly on your "new" system? Pleeb: Flandere: It's still IRSSI in a shell terminal, I just don't have proper scroll support with the terminal I'm using. Flandere: I see. Flandere: There. Pleeb: I'm installing Gentoo on my old Del laptop, going to refit it as another monitor. Pleeb: As for Chess, ehh, not really. Flandere: I will probably get kicked for spoilers, but hey, it's just a notice :P Purlox: Can you please try to find out why you feel this way, I would love to know Asgardian: I agree with Flan to why it he might sound like that, it does seem a bit like a kid getting quick ideas. Pleeb: I would say it's from that google doc thing you posted earlier, but I felt this way beforehand, too.  It's probably due to the fact that I'm not quick to trust, and moreso, I don't trust this guy well enough.  Further, I could see him not agreeing to work with us later since he can do it now. Pleeb: I also recall him discussing patents, etc, before, Pleeb: But idk. Flandere: I should write this essay... Flandere: due 2 weeks ago... Flandere: such a pita though ;w; Pleeb: I have to write an essay today, to get into University of Delaware. Flandere: I have to get rich to get an education Purlox: I quess it could be better if we wait until he makes something we can see until we start trusting him Pleeb: :that feel when grants aren't supported for your second B.Sc. degree and you dun know how you're going to pay for this year Flandere: :that feel when you have to pay it all no matter what Pleeb: It's not a matter of what he makes, it's a matter of if we can trust him in here.  As noted before, we could have him fill the role Bluesleeve was going to fill. Flandere: :only government option is a loan Pleeb: It's not just a matter of* Flandere: :which you start paying the moment you drop out or finish the study Purlox: Pleeb, but what would make you trust him? Just talking with him more? Flandere: It'd show more of his character for sure. Purlox: yeah, it would Pleeb: I'm hopping to speak with him more; I'd like to get a better feel of his motives, as well. Asgardian: Well, the whole body thing seems like something easily fitting in the general community that develops, unrelated to the ivory run we do here. But proving tulpae with MRI is another thing entirely... Pleeb: What are your opinions on that google doc that was posted in here earlier? Pleeb: Or, justpaste.it, or whatever the thing was that was posted about him earlier. Purlox: which one? Purlox: I would have to go to my logs, because I don't have it on screen Pleeb: idk, it was about PD being stuck in his wonderland or sometheng, Pleeb: But at the end, he ended up actually not, and he was proxying the whole time, idk. Pleeb: Something like that. Pleeb: I think it was either you or asgardian that posted it. Purlox: That Purlox: yeah, it was me Pleeb: I briefed it, we never discussed it. Asgardian: Haven't seen it yet Pleeb: If you no longer have the link, I can try greping it if you can tell me which website it was hosted on. Purlox: It was in googledocs afaik Purlox: so google.com is my guess Pleeb: 17:21 < Purlox: Just wanted to make you know about this https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Szwr5bjDp4djiTH_dzmw0p1_q4rQJWcg4g0ge7nvN0k/edit Asgardian: Looks pretty trippy on the first sight, to be frank. Purlox: Flix made the document.   Btw, why is he banned? Pleeb: You'd have to ask around, I wouldn't know why he's banned.  The name rings a bell, though. Purlox: I asked in moderation channel, no answer yet Pleeb: It was probably discussed in the logs in there, let me do a grep.. Purlox: you could make a log of what happened before he was banned if you want to Purlox: Afaik SKoP's ban was discussed, not Flix's Asgardian: Ok, the whole incident in the doc sounds rather weird, to say the very least. Purlox: yes, but not impossibly weird Asgardian: Rather weird as in what it says about this guy's character. Purlox: yeah Flandere: He sounds like the "mad scientist" stereotype. Purlox: It also makes you think he could be potentionally bad ally, because he could be toying with us Asgardian: Exactly Pleeb: This is exactly the vibe I'm getting off him. Pleeb: And why he has a bad feel to him, imo.  Though I had that feeling when we were talking to him the first time, before the google docs, but it was just more or less intuition. Flandere: Now I'm tempted to talk with him to just see if he's crazy or has something or w/e. Flandere: Fsss. Psychological temptations. Hate em. Pleeb: Like, I'm fairly good at reading people by the way they present themselves, and at the very least, this guy had that vibe coming off him when we first talked with him.  It's why I was bringing up, perhaps he could fill bluesleeve's place rather than bringing him onboard. Pleeb: But idk... Asgardian: If apparently having a whole bunch of independant mental ailments requiring medication counts as crazy for you, then he most certainly is. Flandere: Eh, not sure nowadays what I'd call crazy. Asgardian: I did feel an intuitive aversion towards him too, admittedly. Purlox: We could try to use him without telling him any part of our plan, so we are safe in case he is going to try and go against us Flandere: Using people~ Flandere: Yummy~ Purlox: (I need to improve my intuition with people ... anyone wanna help later?) Flandere: (How would anyone help with that?) Asgardian: Then the question is how we could keep him from running with a hammer at the towers, because that is the only thing we really need to worry about, if anything. Flandere: We run with a hammer first! Flandere: The simplest solution often is the best! Flandere: ...just not in this case Asgardian: We erode the stone over the course of 1-2 decades Flandere: I'd take over from the inside, like a virus. Asgardian: Till we break them like ice in small cracks \silly analogies Flandere: But analogies are fun! Flandere: ...as long as you don't think too much about them, if you do they make no sense anymore ;w; Pleeb: What exactly are this guy's mental ailments? Asgardian: If you think about a certain word too much the same happens, as the respective neurons become inhibited \themoreyouknow Purlox: many Flandere: I'd say his morals are fundamentally different. Purlox: he has like 6 or 7 Flandere: Asgardian: I know that feel. Asgardian: I don't have a log, but I remember at least aspergers Flandere: "Hey I said this word a lot...why does it sound wrong now D: D: D:" Flandere: aspergers doesn't say a lot. Pleeb: To be honest, due to the nature of this community, I have a feeling we're going to have a lot of people starting to come out wanting to start doing realistic research NOW; the issue is, we're not going to be able to track down and bring in every single dude who decides to start trying to prove their case to academia. Purlox: Aspengers, some DNOS, OCD, ADHD and more Pleeb: Just as we can't discourgae or try to tear down and bring in anyone pushing on the social front. Flandere: fancy combination Pleeb: DNOS? Asgardian: His credibility is certainly below 9000 Purlox: disorder not otherwise specified Pleeb Pleeb: Oh. Flandere: But again, those disorders don't say a lot. Purlox: stuff like PDNOS Purlox: or DDNOS Pleeb: Then chances are he's going to be ignored by academia anyway, already. Asgardian: Flandere: But make his ivory tower run all that much more risky Pleeb: Even if he has overwelming proof. Flandere: Asgardian: true true Purlox: Pleeb, we could try and make a post or disclaimer about it claiming that we should wait until academia picks it up by itself or something Pleeb: Because the healthy multiples are doing the same thing, and have been doing so for years, he'll most likely be lobbed in with them. Asgardian: And he'll be able to add a DDNOS diagnosis to his list of ailments Pleeb: I'm honestly not too concerned about people pushing on the social front, tbh, and it's probably going to exponentially grow anyway. Pleeb: Refer to my chart that I posted, and what I said, in #tulpa_subc in our very first meeting. Pleeb: If you guys remmeber. Pleeb: otherwise, to reiterate, Purlox: yeah, I do Asgardian: Yep, I remember Flandere: same Pleeb: Okay. Pleeb: Then it's not too much of a concern if people are writing books about tulpae. Flandere: I'm curious whether some 'researcher' with actual credentials is going to be like... Flandere: "oh god this fad is horrible. these people are all mentally scarring themselves! I must prove this with science so we can discourage any others!" Pleeb: inb4 bluesleeve Asgardian: No comment on that guy xD Flandere: xD Purlox: Pleeb, but shouldn't we discourage people from going with hammers at the towers Purlox: more like Bluesleeve's professor Flandere: :implying bluesleeve has credentials Pleeb: It would be better if we could, but I'm not sure how we'd be able to do it in the longrun. Pleeb: Esp without bringing EVERYONE that wants to do it onboard or something. Flandere: Run a fake community story about how someone tried that and that they almost got hospitalised. Pleeb: Which seems to be the route we're trying to work in right now, which I'm fine with early on, as we're going to need a strong 1st layer network, but the more people that are brought on board, the riskyer this gets. Flandere: In a civil country with no whacky laws. Asgardian: We need a social engineering masterplan to keep /everyone/ in line Purlox: yeah, that could work Flan Asgardian: And that plan is not even the worst on that regard. Flandere: In the long run, it has no credibility to work against us. Flandere: Because it actually never happened and no one has any proof to the contrary. Asgardian: Especially since super edgy and rebellious teens will be even encouraged to run with a hammer. Pleeb: I would be content with this, if we could pull it off correctly. Flandere: It would almost scream "FAKE!" if it were post like "I know this guy and this is what happened to him" Flandere: Or girl, or whatever. Purlox: Also we should discuss what I said earlier