"On Doubt and Belief"
By CelestialBoon (https://pastebin.com/u/CelestialBoon)

URL: https://pastebin.com/f65dxZMy
Created on: Thursday 25th of January 2018 08:25:21 AM CDT
Retrieved on: Saturday 31 of October 2020 02:39:22 AM UTC


12:32 PM] Andy [Sarah]: I would ask about proxying and vocal stiff but I have asked too many questions like that over the last 7 months. And doubt is a big one too.
[12:33 PM] Patterns[Tread]{Relsa}: what kinds of doubts?
[12:34 PM] Andy [Sarah]: Mainly about her being vocal and if she has developed to the place I think she has developed.
[12:34 PM] Andy [Sarah]: If I am getting slight possession from her when I proxy her then she has to be at least as developed as I think she is.
[12:35 PM] Andy [Sarah]: Even if not. It isn't just a scale of 1 through 10. There is a lot more to development than that(edited)
[12:38 PM] Patterns[Tread]{Relsa}: what makes you doubt that shes vocal?
[12:41 PM] Andy [Sarah]: Well I had doubted.  Not now. I don't want to doubt her. I will just let her do her think and let the words flow.(edited)
[12:41 PM] CelestialBoon: I'm gonna repeat but, doubt is the need of the belief to validate itself. You can drop the doubt by dropping the belief, and you'll both be fine just winging it
[12:42 PM] Andy [Sarah]: So the belief for Sarah to validate that it is her?
[12:43 PM] Andy [Sarah]: And I just felt a thought saying but it is her.
[12:44 PM] Andy [Sarah]: [He could just proxy me and cut the BS of if this is me or not. It doesn't even matter.]
[12:44 PM] CelestialBoon: Most witches don't believe in gods. They know that the gods exist, of course. They even deal with them occasionally. But they don't believe in them. They know them too well. It would be like believing in the postman. ? Terry Pratchett
[12:44 PM] Andy [Sarah]: Hmm
[12:44 PM] CelestialBoon: I'm talking the same thing here, you don't need to believe in something to have it exist, and interact with it
[12:44 PM] CelestialBoon: you can just do
[12:45 PM] Andy [Sarah]: Ah
[12:46 PM] Andy [Sarah]: [Everything exists even when our eyes are closed, even if we don't believe it]
[12:46 PM] CelestialBoon: and without belief, there is no doubt, because there's no mental model that you could be doubting the validity of
[12:46 PM] CelestialBoon: you can just do things in the present and observe them and be fine like you do for everything else
[12:48 PM] CelestialBoon: tulpas are not sustained by belief. Skeptics make them all the time.
[12:48 PM] CelestialBoon: they are sustained by attention, interaction, love.
[12:48 PM] Andy [Sarah]: Ah yes. I remember that. That doubt is when you expect to reach somewhere and you doubt you can get there.
[12:48 PM] Andy [Sarah]: Well then she is completely real. I have hardly went a day without doing anything with her.
[12:49 PM] CelestialBoon: there you have it
[12:49 PM] Andy [Sarah]: But I wasn't doubting her being real, I was just doubting her speaking but it doesn't really matter either. She even said it herself.
[12:50 PM] CelestialBoon: every time you doubt you are comparing your experience to some mental model that you'd expect reality to conform to
[12:50 PM] CelestialBoon: but you don't need that model, the experience is already there
[12:51 PM] Andy [Sarah]: And there is no mental model to compare a vocal tulpa. I have never experienced it before so I can't compare it.
[12:52 PM] CelestialBoon: I understand the need to box and categorize experiences but a tulpa is hardly the situation to indulge such a thing, from experience
[12:52 PM] CelestialBoon: tulpas are as large and multifaceted as the mind itself
[12:53 PM] Patterns[Tread]{Relsa}: I dont think anyone could have said it better than @CelestialBoon
[12:53 PM] CelestialBoon: we all do our best
[12:54 PM] Andy [Sarah]: Yes. Sarah's thoughts is not comparable to Tread's thoughts