[01:33:32] <Nebulon> That thread was great because I literally replied to it and forgot about it until everything exploded.
[01:34:06] <Nebulon> Like I basically accidentally put in a huge fuse and walked away, coming bakk to "WHAT THE FUKK DID YOU DOOOOOO?"
[01:34:18] <Pegasik> <WingbeatPony> the word "hugbox" was thrown around a lot then << what's wrong with hugbox? not the word, the phenomenon?
[01:34:49] <WingbeatPony> It's considered restrictive on freedom of speech and makes everything "artificially" nice
[01:35:02] <RepentantAnon> you hug someone then you box them in the nose
[01:35:10] <Grieffon> hugbox makes people close their brain to different ideas that are potentially beneficial
[01:35:14] <RepentantAnon> anyone would get pissed off
[01:35:31] <Grieffon> oh wait no that's an echo chamber
[01:35:33] <Nebulon> It's like, nazism is bad and all
[01:35:34] <WingbeatPony> and third, it's antithetical to anyone from 4chan
[01:35:44] <TimHortons> bored, I wish armadilloeater was here in PA guns are overrated when you need angry sex to be raped too.
[01:35:44] <Nebulon> so anyone who starts talking about degenerates gets BTFO
[01:35:53] <WingbeatPony> which we are not, but still, they're awfully loud when they're angry
[01:35:56] <Nebulon> and as a result, you can't even discuss what it is
[01:35:57] <Zeb> Hmm... Well even if downvotes are left on the thumbnail. I'd still support making downvote also hide the image. while hiding doesn't add a downvote. And is someone doesn't want the image they downvoted hidden, we alread had an option to see your hidden art to go and uncheck the hidden part.  Or add a setting that your downvotes don't hide for you.
[01:36:12] <Nebulon> and then it feels wrong to angry alt-righters etc.
[01:36:24] <Nebulon> because they're used to being treated as special snowflakes
[01:36:34] <WingbeatPony> I like what Zeb's saying, with one possible addition?
[01:36:56] <Pegasik> WingbeatPony i can barely understand how the freedom of speech is applicable to private site
[01:37:17] <WingbeatPony> Make an easy-to-access button for hidden images to be shown, for people who hide something and change their mind after they've navigated away
[01:37:18] <Nebulon> It's a principles thing
[01:37:26] <TimHortons> its a bad implication I think I posted this line before
[01:37:28] <Nebulon> also, special snowflakes
[01:37:37] <WingbeatPony> I think something like what I just said has been suggested many times
[01:37:42] <Nebulon> .q add TimHortons bored, I wish armadilloeater was here in PA guns are overrated when you need angry sex to be raped too.
[01:37:43] <Sonata_Dusk> quote added.
[01:37:46] <Zeb> WingbeatPony, We had that as a user setting already
[01:38:07] <WingbeatPony> yes, but having it as a button at the bottom of a page of thumbnails
[01:38:12] <WingbeatPony> or something to that effect
[01:38:19] <WingbeatPony> to temporarily unhide
[01:38:19] <Zeb> Or do you mean-ok you just said what I was gonna ask
[01:38:57] <Pegasik> or, if it's applicable, how the concept that downvotes influences the way pictures are exposed to viewers doesnt break freedom of artist to speak out
[01:39:07] <Zeb> I'm curious if it could be made so if you specifically search for "my:hidden" you can then see the hidden images in search results.
[01:39:21] <WingbeatPony> that wouldn't be a bad idea either
[01:39:21] <Nebulon> It's not about downvotes seeming to restrict what artists can say
[01:39:31] <Nebulon> it's about restricting downvotes seeming to restrict what people can say
[01:39:33] <WingbeatPony> honestly, I think we may be overthinking this whole thing and introducing the hiding feature might actually sort out the downvote problems
[01:39:36] <TimHortons> the worst thing Nintendo will fuck up. Wrong one got to admit, Jaeger is around.
[01:39:54] <Nebulon> You are not sorting out downvotes so long as they are spammable from gallery pages.
[01:39:57] <Nebulon> That is a guarantee.
[01:40:45] <Nebulon> It's like automated piss-raining buttons as people walk at a fast pace across the aisle.
[01:40:47] <WingbeatPony> If the buttons were fave, up, down, and hide, are you absolutely sure that people would choose downvote every time?
[01:41:06] <Nebulon> Some of them would clikk the worse of down and hide
[01:41:12] <Nebulon> which I think for this discussion is down
[01:41:15] <Nebulon> since it would also hide
[01:41:18] <Nebulon> people would love that.
[01:41:22] <WingbeatPony> some of them, but not all of them
[01:41:42] <Pegasik> <%Nebulon> also, special snowflakes << i found it funny yesterday how "grown-up" people using the term "against" younger ones fall under the same term perfectly.
[01:42:00] <Nebulon> It's like having a piss button that also steers you away from where you've already pissed
[01:42:17] <RepentantAnon> hmmm... downvotes... down boats... under boats... uboats....... :O I GOT IT! SUBMARINES!!!
[01:42:18] <WingbeatPony> and for all we know, people have been downvoting because no such feature as 'hide' exists - just look at how many people have wanted a way to hide their own downvotes over the years
[01:42:21] <Nebulon> Sonic images come up and people are like NOOOOOPE
[01:42:22] <TimHortons> clients shove cleaning tools up your soul.
[01:42:34] <Nebulon> That's not why they do it, WingbeatPony.
[01:42:51] <Nebulon> if that were the case, people using "my:downvotes" as a filter would've come out in greater numbers.
[01:43:03] <Nebulon> Do you think SunnySide truly wants to never see sonic shit?
[01:43:04] <Nebulon> No
[01:43:16] <Nebulon> She wants to piss on it, doesn't care if she can still see it after.
[01:43:25] <Grieffon> here's a simple test
[01:43:26] <Zeb> What if, instead of a hard limit on downvotes per day, or some type of reputation feature. It's just made that you can't spam downvotes. Like commening multiple lines, then being shortly muted in a chat for a few seconds.  So: you could downvote normally. like, one every minute or so. but if you do five downvotes in 30 seconds you have a pause on downvoting for a half hour or something.
[01:43:38] <Zeb> [just throwing random numbers out. the concept is the important part]
[01:43:50] <Nebulon> Some do downvote because of filter laziness, but even then, among them, some want to still see it either to piss on it or in case something's good.
[01:43:53] <Grieffon> check the filters of people who frequently downvotes and see if they have anything that would be affected by downvotes in there
[01:43:56] <WingbeatPony> rate limiting downvotes has been discussed, there are some useful responses in the thread
[01:44:27] <Nebulon> We already rate-limit at a relatively fast limit.
[01:44:35] <Zeb> Most of the limiting I've seen was limiting it to a few a day or so. a hard cap. Though I possibly just missed those that talked about anti-spamming feature for downvotes
[01:44:36] <WingbeatPony> and Grieffon, I actually mentioned a modtool that could be created to assist in doing that - the mods do this already, but it takes a lot of effort to find patterns
[01:44:38] <Nebulon> Can't utterly spam full auto
[01:44:39] <Pegasik> "downvote also hides pictures" - brilliant. Kamikaze attack.
[01:45:20] <Zeb> Nebulon, You sure? I'm pretty sure I could go through and downvote every pic on the front page as fast as I could click.
[01:45:27] <TimHortons> doing a roll PC wise lately
[01:45:34] <Nebulon> Depends on how fast you move the mouse
[01:45:39] <Zeb> Gimme a sec.
[01:45:46] <Nebulon> If you're fast, it will stop you every so many.
[01:45:56] <Nebulon> It's mostly to prevent scripts.
[01:46:47] <WingbeatPony> I could open the entire front page in tabs, and hit ctrl+tab and d repeatedly and if I don't hit the rate limit instantly there's a problem
[01:47:05] <Zeb> Nebulon, I just downvoted 50 images in less than a minute.
[01:47:44] <WingbeatPony> For a rate limit to be effective here, it'd need to be a tenth that imo
[01:47:57] <WingbeatPony> at minimum
[01:49:09] <WingbeatPony> but I still don't think someone who downvotes a subject matter at the rate such images are uploaded will be affected at all
[01:49:40] <WingbeatPony> there is no one solution because there is no one single issue at hand
[01:49:53] <Nebulon> So
[01:49:59] <Nebulon> problems can be solved two ways
[01:50:01] <TimHortons> on that Itsthinking :3
[01:50:02] <RepentantAnon> tell me you can't actually use vinegar to clean a laptop screen
[01:50:04] <Nebulon> add more complication
[01:50:07] <Nebulon> remove complication
[01:50:22] <Zeb> That's why I was saying spamming more than 5 or 10 within a few minutes gives you a pause for a longer time period. If you go slowly, or when you actually hate the image, then you don't have to worry at all about the limit. But if you try to downvote every image udner a tag quickly. then you're gonna quickly hit a wall. And having to downvote all the images slowly so you don't hit the wall would put off people trying to do that. [the casual ones at least]
[01:50:44] <Nebulon> IMO, most solutions here are too additionally complicated for the problem.
[01:51:01] <Nebulon> Complexity has cost.
[01:51:06] <Zeb> Very true.
[01:51:20] <WingbeatPony> So let's work iteratively and see how few solutions are needed to achieve results
[01:51:21] <Pegasik> how downvotes actually affect artists?
[01:51:25] <Nebulon> If you want to really solve these problems, you need to remove complication.
[01:51:28] <Zeb> But since the extremely simple option: Remove downvotes" is not acceptable. more complicated ones need to be thought up.
[01:51:32] <WingbeatPony> We're looking to reduce the problem, not remove it
[01:51:38] <Nebulon> I think it can be acceptable
[01:51:42] <Zeb> Not necessarily HAVE to be super complicated. but ideas need to be considered.
[01:51:43] <Nebulon> you just hav to do it in stages
[01:52:05] <Nebulon> just nuking it all at once when everyone thinks they care is a bad idea
[01:52:18] <Nebulon> you should create stages that progressively make it slightly less important
[01:52:19] <WingbeatPony> "Remove downvotes" cannot be acceptable because of how users behave when you make any steps towards that goal
[01:52:30] <TimHortons> we need a passport to fly. Its wings are like "u gotta go guys, I'll catch it on your kidneys to filter up to
[01:52:41] <Nebulon> Each step has to be very carefully done, but past the first few, very few will complain
[01:52:48] <Nebulon> eventually, you can just axe the downvotes.
[01:53:20] <Nebulon> Atrophy the monster one limb at a time. Don't try and fight it head-on immediatel.
[01:53:24] <Nebulon> immediately*
[01:53:29] <WingbeatPony> I would love to see how you can carefully achieve removing the downvote button or the impact of downvotes on the score without immediate and total backlash
[01:53:31] <Nebulon> First giv people a hide button
[01:53:44] <Nebulon> then take downvotes off thumbs
[01:53:45] <Nebulon> etc.
[01:53:48] <TimHortons> !